In this raw and powerful conversation, Jeffery Ross sits down with leadership coach, speaker, and military veteran Jim Burgoon to unpack what it really takes to become a Hero Maker. This episode isn’t about the spotlight — it’s about the trenches. Jim shares his story of pain, pressure, and purpose — and how true leadership is forged in fire, not fame. From battling complex PTSD and family struggles to rebuilding his mission through faith and intentional growth, Jim offers a roadmap to building a legacy that outlasts applause. If you're tired of surface-level leadership and ready to embrace character, growth, and legacy — this one’s for you.
"Your gift might get you on the stage, but your character is what keeps you there." – Jim Burgoon
"Legacy isn’t what people say when you die. It’s how you live now that echoes through generations." – Jeffery Ross
"Wisdom doesn’t come from experience. It comes from evaluated experience." – Jim Burgoon
Jim Burgoon
Jeff Ross (00:00) Hey legends, welcome to season three of the LaptopLive.Dad show. We're switching up the gears here. This is the hero maker season. This season is all about leadership, but we're not done with the learning the tools. Sure, we're going to cover AI, social selling, content, attraction, marketing, all the other gear that we've been covering up until this point. But I feel it's time to go deeper.
You know, everything that we talk about, it really comes down to leadership. know, as John Maxwell calls leadership, it's influence nothing more, nothing less. So we're going to really unpack and explore what it means to lead from identity, to build not just businesses, but movements, to find the voice inside you, to raise up other leaders. So hero makers are born in the spotlight.
They're forged in the trenches of sacrifice, consistency, courage, love. And they make leaders who make other leaders. They pass the bike. They focus on building legacy. So if you're ready to step up to rise beyond the hustle, beyond the noise, beyond just making profit and build something that endures, well, welcome. You're exactly where you need to be. And today's guest is no other than Jim Begoin. Begoon.
Jim Burgoon (01:18)
again.
Jeff Ross (01:19)
There you go.
Dyslexic. Sorry, Jim Begoon. And we're to have an amazing conversation here all around focused on the core topic of leadership, but let's get into it, Jim. So you're a global speaker. You're a leadership coach. You're a visionary who's helped Christ-centered entrepreneurs, especially take God's place in front and center for them lives to let it break out into the world. You know, with over 20 years of leadership experience, mastery and relationship leadership.
disc, personality profiling, you know, you really do lead with a heart for faith and influence. know, Jim, someone that I can see is a hero maker who becomes a leader who creates other leaders because you're teaching people how to lead themselves and how to go do that in the world. So let's welcome Jim to the show. Can't really wait to unpack your story. So let's start there. I find the best place to start is to give people space to share their story.
So Jim, what's your story?
Jim Burgoon (02:20)
Well, first and foremost, thank you for having me on the show. I'm looking forward to this and have been looking forward to this, my friend. So when you say, what's your story, there are layers to that. mean, layers upon layers and layers of my story. But what I will say, like if I'm gonna go anywhere, when you talk about the brand of hero makers, know, heroes, I love what you said, heroes are made in the trenches.
Jeff Ross (02:47)
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (02:47)
And
my story really has been one where I have never left the trenches. Whether it be leading at home, leading in, you know, whether I was at churches or my business or wherever I was leading, school system, was always a trench anchored life, basically. So it's been this one time, and I joke about this, ever since I was a kid, I've had one...
Jeff Ross (03:07)
Yeah.
Jim Burgoon (03:13)
war after another after another, then I joined the military, and things like that. So there has always been some form of hardship or some form of challenges that have forged the way I think, the way I move, the way I breathe, but it all comes from the place of the trenches. And I know as we get into this we'll unpack a lot of that, but what I will say is this, is there has been a lot of things in my life. Growing up, there was abuse.
Jeff Ross (03:27)
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (03:43)
when I was in the military, there was bullying. When my wife is diagnosed with multiple mental illness, I myself has complex CPTSD as well as high functioning depression and some chronic illness like autoimmune and stuff. So there's always been this level of fire that was always trying to burn me. And when we get into this,
We are always made, you know, none of us who you consider would consider a hero ever consider ourselves heroes. And I don't. And I don't consider myself a hero at all. I consider myself somebody who has survived the fire and is trying to bring as many people with me as I can.
Jeff Ross (04:13)
No, not at all.
Yeah. I love that. I love that you identify that, you know, hero makers don't necessarily identify themselves as heroes, right? Because it's a whole different conversation. And the conversation I see around this whole topic, and I've seen it, you know, many times, and it's just been highlighted again, is it's not about us, it's about who we can help. It's about the bigger mission. It's about the wider impact. But in saying that,
You know, we've had to go through our trials by fire. We've had to go through, you know, you know, climbing our own mountains, if you will, to be able to guide other people, you know, to be able to be that hero maker. So, you know, every hero maker's journey does have its own hero's journey, you know, in that space, but it doesn't stop there. It's only the starting point, if you will. So I like to dig into that a little bit, if we can, you know, where did
You know, I suppose what's the biggest lessons that you've learnt along your journey to get to where you are now, like looking at this vantage point, reflecting back on where you've come from to where you are. What would you have wanted someone to say to you before you started? What was some of the wisdom you'd like to be imparted on you as you start to dig into this journey?
Jim Burgoon (05:46)
So if I was looking back on Young Jim, one of the biggest things I think I would say to myself is, there's gonna be a lot of hardship and giving up is easy. Matter of fact, nobody would blame you for giving up. Nobody would blame you for laying down. Nobody would blame you for just trying to just survive. Nobody would blame you. But if you gave up and you laid down and you didn't at least attempt,
Jeff Ross (05:56)
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (06:14)
what you saw, what you felt, what vision you were given, then you'll never know what you're truly capable of. You'll never know how far you could have gone. Where it's easier to take the easy way out and lay down and just say, you know what, I'm just gonna do my thing, do my job, do whatever I need to do. But it takes grit, it takes resilience, it takes a depth of integrity and character, and if you're constantly building those things,
Jeff Ross (06:21)
Wow.
Jim Burgoon (06:42)
then giving up is not an option because you start to see that what you're going through has purpose, has platform, and is able to impact greater amounts of people because of the story that's being created.
Jeff Ross (06:44)
Bzzz
Yeah, well, that's powerful. They say that, you know, most people that they've interviewed on their deathbed, that the number one thing that really scares them or, you know, when they look back at their life, that is regret. You know, is that that thing that I wish I'd done that thing, I wish I'd stepped up, I wish I were rose to that call. You know, too many of us in life live in, you know, get to the end of it or get to the, you know, the tombstone.
in regret. You know, I know that you're one of the same people were cut from the same cloth in this way. I want to be running and screaming all the way sliding and having fun doing playing life full out, you know, and saying I used every ounce of energy that I could to make an impact. And, and I think that's the key difference here between like really true leadership. I'm not talking about positional leadership. I'm talking about leaders who
Jim Burgoon (07:26)
Yeah.
Right.
Jeff Ross (07:51)
and not doing it for themselves, but they're doing it for others to help empower and equip and that I see a new conversation to lift up others, to raise up the bar, that type of leadership.
Jim Burgoon (08:00)
Right.
Right. Now I'm 100 % agreement with you and I think so and I think if I was going to say it, would be this. It's that the greatest leaders remember what it felt like. And it's exactly what you're saying and because we remember what it felt like, we want to help others not have to experience that as well. And I think that's really where it comes back around because I think there's too many people
Jeff Ross (08:12)
Hmm
Yeah, that's it.
Jim Burgoon (08:27)
who have done this leadership thing, who has done this business thing, who has done all of this stuff for so long, even as a Christianity, like when you've been a Christian for so long, most people don't even remember that moment, that it all changed. And as long as we can stay anchored to what it felt like, what that moment meant.
Jeff Ross (08:40)
BLEH
Jim Burgoon (08:49)
I think we never lose perspective of when somebody else comes up to us, regardless if they have money to pay us or if they're not part of our mission or they're not part of our organization. You generally want to help because you remember what it was like.
Jeff Ross (09:03)
Yeah. Well said. And I just love how this, yeah, this, whole conversation is lining up. It's just divine intervention. Like, I'm not sure you're aware. I actually just come off being interviewed by Joe Graham. Like he was interviewing me for the Joe Graham show. I love Joe. Right. So this is coming off the back of that conversation and it's just beautiful timing. no, it's getting released next week. So, but it's just, but just coming off the back of that, it's beautiful timing. And, um,
Jim Burgoon (09:15)
love Joe, Joe's one of my favorite people.
I haven't heard I don't think he's gonna release that for a few weeks. ⁓ sweet
Jeff Ross (09:33)
I'll have to make sure that we release this one close enough to that. people can tie it in. But, ⁓ the thing I want to really highlight here from that conversation, even to this one, and it's a threat threat, right? For every conversation is the, that this type of leadership, what we're talking about really is discipleship and, and, and it's designed, it's, it's designed to go create other leaders who create other leaders. Like it's so if
Jim Burgoon (09:36)
You
Jeff Ross (09:59)
forces an ownership, it forces accountability, it forces a responsibility, if you will, to help us to step up and get up out of our own ego, our own pride, our own arrogance in that space to go play a bigger, better game. Because how can I lead you or be led by others if it's just about their agenda?
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (10:21)
Yeah, so ⁓ the whole agenda thing, interesting enough, Henry Blackaby from, I think the book was, Spiritual Leadership, talks about that. And he says, and I hope I don't butcher this quote, but he says, he says, one of the things about being a spiritual leader is helping people get off of their agenda and onto God's agenda. And so I think there's a big thing about that. Everybody out there has an agenda. We all do. We all do.
Jeff Ross (10:30)
Hmm.
Yeah, amen.
Yeah, of course we do.
Jim Burgoon (10:50)
The reality of a leader is can we unify agendas to where we're going in the same direction? And the reality of a one heart, one mind, one direction, and the reality of a spiritual leader comes into the fuller dynamic of that is that one heart, one mind, one direction, also the direction that God's calling us to.
Jeff Ross (10:56)
One heart, one mind.
Yeah, right. And I get that. But here's, here's the other side of this conversation that I want to dig into with you. And I think you've got a depth of wisdom to share in here and perspective. So as a spiritual leader, a leader of any kind, really, you know, we, we, we get into it, we climb the ranks, we set out with really good intentions. We set out with really good mission, but then I don't know, corruption sets in, sin sets in.
For whatever reason, I'm not making any judgment or condemnation here or any equation, but there seems to be that there are a lot of leaders who raise the ranks but fall off the perch, so to speak. And the challenge that I see here is what happens is the world starts to seep in with individualism, consumerism, idolatry, you know, and I feel like this is the enemy to this whole conversation. You every good story has a hero and every good story has a villain.
Jim Burgoon (11:48)
Yes.
Okay.
Jeff Ross (12:06)
You know, so we're talking about the villain of this conversation. love to really deep dive into this with you because I know that you've got a depth of wisdom and, and from your own personal experiences and your own personal reflection. So let's go, let's go into it. So what are your thoughts in this whole conversation?
Jim Burgoon (12:22)
So I'll tell you the first thing is your gift will make room for you. That's what the Bible tells us. It says our gift makes room for us. But here's the challenge with that. Our gift makes room for us and has us stand before kings, but our character is what keeps us there.
And if we're not developing a godly character in the midst of open doors from our gifts that our gift is making, we will not stay where we were planted. And so that's the problem. And the other part of that conversation is it's not that we get to a certain pinnacle and corruption hits and all this stuff.
Jeff Ross (12:46)
Hmm
Jim Burgoon (12:55)
We've got to remember that a lot of this stuff starts to reveal what's already there. So like, if you really want to know the type of person you are, give them a million dollars and they're going to show you exactly who they are. It's not like when they got the million, it made them that way. There's something inside all of us that is hidden, that is dark, that is really eating away at us. And here's the deal.
Jeff Ross (13:00)
Yes.
Jim Burgoon (13:20)
If your gift makes room for you, if your whatever gets you into a place of higher leadership, higher celebrity, higher all these things, and you've never worked on your character, you're not gonna stay there long. That's why you have music artists who are now like drug addicts, and you have pastors of mega churches who are now like fallen because they've slept around or they've done something. Because they never dealt with the character before the Lord growing in that...
Jeff Ross (13:36)
Mm-hmm.
Jim Burgoon (13:47)
And so when they got to that, it was just too much for them to handle and it fell off. The other thing I'll tell you, and this is something that really hit me a long time ago, is I was praying about this because you see these big leaders and I've been on fairly large stages and speaking and different things. The applause is addicting. It's super addicting. It feels good. Your flesh is like, yeah, this is great. But here's the challenge.
Jeff Ross (14:08)
Yeah, I get it. I'll next.
Jim Burgoon (14:17)
You and I were never created to be worshiped like that. And so when we begin to take that on ourselves, that massive applause, that massive thing, and we say, yes, thank you for my job, thank you for what I've done, when we begin to receive that instead of redirecting that to the Lord, the problem is that it starts to get into us and now we think we're the big deal and that we don't need God.
Jeff Ross (14:22)
BLEH
Jim Burgoon (14:44)
And we don't need to get up in here. And this is where the problem starts coming in because we're in places we were never meant to receive. We're in places receiving things we were never meant to receive.
Jeff Ross (14:55)
Yeah. You know, and I know that you're, you sort of become an integral part of our online church with today's discipleship community. And I love having you there. It's, it's a beautiful wisdom and depth that you bring to the conversation. And you've heard me say it a couple of times that, you know, as leaders, we need to be working at ways to, be bridges to the conversation, not blocks to the conversation. So what are some of the things that you do, putting practice, some of the principles, some of the
the tools, the strategies that help you to facilitate that where you become the bridge to the conversation, not the block.
Jim Burgoon (15:30)
So number one is I have to be really aware. So I think the problem I think a lot of us is we're aware of what everybody else is doing, but we're very not self-aware at all. And the greater my self-awareness, the greater I can enter conversations more authentically at a higher level. You you say like wisdom. So let's even unpack that. And this is what I do. I do this regularly.
Jeff Ross (15:34)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Jim Burgoon (15:56)
Just because you went through something doesn't mean you gain wisdom. Wisdom is not gained through experience. I know it's been said that a long time. It's not. Where wisdom is gained is through evaluated experience. When I go back into it and I start to rip apart in my mind and my heart, okay, what is this? How did I act here? How should I have acted? What does the Bible say? What is common like, you know, just everyday like...
Jeff Ross (16:04)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Jim Burgoon (16:22)
nice things that I outside the cultural norms, like just different things. And so if I'm not constantly evaluating situations, then I'm not gaining the wisdom that I need. When you go through something, you may learn something, but if you want applied wisdom, godly wisdom, then you've got to look at that thing and just rip it apart. How was my heart? Did I have an agenda? What could I have said better? How can I improve? That's where true wisdom is gained. So I think on the... And this is where it comes back.
Jeff Ross (16:47)
Yes.
Jim Burgoon (16:52)
to number one, you need self-awareness. If you're not aware of yourself, then when you evaluate it, you will always be the hero or the victim, but you will never actually see yourself for who you really are. And who we really are tends to be flawed. We make mistakes. We fall short.
Jeff Ross (16:55)
Hmm
Jim Burgoon (17:10)
And that's okay. And this is where the insecurity and the self-worth has to come up because we have to realize that I am not the culmination of my mistakes. That is not my identity. I don't identify as a failure. I am someone who fails.
You know, I have failed at more business and more life than I know what to do with, but I don't identify myself as I am not a failure. There's a big difference. So if you have a low self-worth, if you have a low sense of security, if you have no identity, which I'm gonna tell you most people nowadays have lack of identity. It's just swish-cheese. Right. And so because of that,
Jeff Ross (17:30)
Yep.
There's character deficiency for sure.
Jim Burgoon (17:51)
you're going to have a really wonky self-awareness. Like, you're not going to be able to see yourself in a proper perspective, which then when you go in to evaluate your experiences, you're going to already have a deficiency or an anchor or a blockage or a barrier to seeing the truth. And if you can't see the truth, you're going to miss it and you're not going to gain what you need to gain in order to move forward.
Jeff Ross (17:54)
Hmm.
Yeah, best study.
I love that evaluated wisdom. And essentially that's like something I've, you've just given me a terminology and a vocabulary to something that I've already been doing for the last 10 years, which is journaling and, know, going back through the day, like I've got journals for the last decade, you know, basically, okay, how did today go? What did I do? Well, you know, that part of the conversation, but the flip side of the conversation is where was I challenged? What could I do something to do different? What could I do something better?
And it's in that habit, in that spiritual habit, if you will, where growth is, it's exponential. It's, it's forced intentional growth is the best way to describe it. Right.
Jim Burgoon (18:55)
Yes.
Absolutely.
And you've got to be willing to ask the hard questions. Like if you're afraid of the hard questions, you're not going to challenge growth. I mean, we've heard it a hundred times. If you've been in any leadership for any length of time, you don't grow in your comfort zone. Listen, I get it. You don't. Growth is stunted in comfort. But I'd like to really kind of change a little bit of that narrative as opposed to just saying that you're not going to grow if you're comfortable.
Jeff Ross (19:01)
Yeah.
Nah, not at all.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (19:26)
You're not going to grow if you're not intentional. I think that's a better way of putting it because most people, you've got to be intentional to step out of where your comfort level is because most people are like, ⁓ I just don't want to be comfortable. Let's do this. No. If we're intentional, if we ask the hard questions and we're willing to receive the hard truth of it to take a really good look in the mirror and say, yeah, that's a character flaw I need to fix.
Jeff Ross (19:29)
Mmm. I love that.
Yes.
Grrr.
Jim Burgoon (19:54)
and
be okay with that, I promise you within a short amount of time, you will grow more than any hiring any coach, hiring any person out there who's like, if you hire me in 90 days, I'll make you a different person.
The key and the underlining current of all of this is can you look in the mirror and ask the really tough questions and really search the answers and accept the truth of radical acceptance, is it what they use in psychology? Just take radical acceptance, this is who I am currently but it's not going to be who I'm always going to be. And then move through that.
Jeff Ross (20:31)
Hey.
There's a in that. That's fascinating. Let's unpack that a little bit. Because what are the elements to growth? Like I could see that it requires a safe space first and foremost, you know, like, so you need a space where you have a safety and intimacy of the community that you're growing with. So I think that needs to be very foundational in that space because there's too many, let's call them toxic spaces where, you know, where growth is sort of
Jim Burgoon (20:33)
Sure.
Right.
100%.
Jeff Ross (21:02)
in a wrong environment, wrong engender, wrong. It's almost manipulative. It's palpable. What you can see when you look at the from this vantage point. And ⁓ so I think that's that's key, right? We need a safe space where we've got clear boundaries, respect and feel seen and feel valued. And it's the relationship goes both ways. And, you know, in that, I think in that safe space, the culture needs to be above the line, meaning that, you know,
Jim Burgoon (21:09)
Yes.
Jeff Ross (21:32)
There's no room for blame, excuse and denial. know, there's compassion and there's kindness and that's part of it. Yes. But it's, about rising the vibration above the line where people take ownership and accountability and responsibility for everything. What do you feel are some of the elements that's required for an individual to grow, but also a like-minded body of a community to grow together?
Jim Burgoon (21:57)
So I'll tackle the like-minded body of the community to grow together because that'll be the easier one.
Jeff Ross (22:02)
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (22:04)
To grow together as a community, you have to be growing as an individual. You cannot grow as a community if you're not growing as an individual. So as a leader of a community, the job of the leader is to encourage, to push towards growth of all the individuals. So that way they have individual growth and as they grow individually, yeah, as the leader, that they're causing their people individual growth and then the collective community has
Jeff Ross (22:09)
Yes, of course.
Raise the lid,
Jim Burgoon (22:34)
Community growth because now we're all coming together and then there's that back and forth. There's that accountability There's all that stuff now. We're growing together, but if you don't start individually, you'll never start community It's just not gonna you have to it has to be both end For for individual I think first and foremost we need to really define growth Because we just use these these terminologies. Let's grow. Well, how are you gonna grow?
Jeff Ross (22:35)
Yeah.
Hmm
powerful.
BLEH
Yeah.
Jim Burgoon (23:03)
I define, like, there was a while ago that I kind of wrote out six or seven dimensions of growth. And they're not all the same. Like, there's relational growth, mental growth, emotional growth, physical growth, spiritual growth, relational growth. You know, there's a bunch of different ways to grow. And so when you're just saying growth, well, where are you growing at? Because you're not going to grow at all of these dimensions all at the same time. It's just not possible. You're one person and you can't do all of it all at once. Yeah, sure. Go for it.
Jeff Ross (23:14)
Spiritual growth, yes.
I love that you point that out there. Sorry to cut in, but I love that you point that out.
actually Dave Ferguson from, he's a pastor from Chicago. And, I've read a lot of his books here. And one of the principles that he talks about here is essentially is a lot of people are out here trying to get their external world, right? You know, like to get their finances, right? To get their career, right? To get their blah, blah, like the external world, right? What he describes is in that book is, is to get that right. We need to focus on our internal world.
what you just touched on there in the growth areas of spiritual fitness, physical, emotional, relational, you know, those, those areas, right? So there's actually, you know, this is a self evaluation examination. So if we can go through and once a month at the very least go through and say, okay, all right, in my spiritual health, how am I going? In my scale of one to 10, what do I need to improve on there? Same with the emotional and same with the relational and blah, blah. And then, and that gives you a bit of a, an idea of how wonky
the internal flywheel is to get the gears kicking along, to get the mechanics going along, to get that flywheel cranking along to reflect the external world. And I found myself saying quite a lot lately that most of our challenges and problems in life are not external, they're all internal. So if we can focus on the internal, the external will reflect that. Let's unpack that a little bit more.
Jim Burgoon (24:40)
Absolutely.
Let's unpack that a little
bit. Yeah, absolutely. So there's a couple things. Number one is no matter if your internal is getting stronger, growing, I often like it to the illustration of a submarine. Why is a submarine able to go to great lengths underwater and not implode? If you think about this, it's because the internal pressure is equalized to the external pressure.
Jeff Ross (25:09)
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (25:22)
So because they're equalized, the submarine doesn't implode. But the problem is, is once the external pressure is greater and it gets internal, it completely implodes. So if we look at that as in humanity, as long as we're building the internal pressure to be equal or greater than the external, then no matter what comes against us, we won't fold. But the moment we allow what's outside of us, because we can't stop,
Jeff Ross (25:23)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Jim Burgoon (25:50)
everything from coming against us. Life is going to life. But once the external comes at us and we internalize that, we're already sunk. We're already starting to go downhill. We need to start repressurizing the internals.
Jeff Ross (25:58)
Yeah, well.
That's fascinating. The biblical passage that comes out for me as you're describing that, and I'm very badly paraphrasing, I can never remember where they are in the exact words, but the story that comes to mind is building a house on a rock versus sand. And that's what that spiritual context of this conversation helps us to do. And I know that's what it's really done for my life and others in my circle of influence is that spiritual part.
Jim Burgoon (26:17)
Absolutely.
Jeff Ross (26:30)
If it's not there, then you're building a house on the sand because it's everything. You're, you're flat flapping the wind, so to speak. But what this does is it gives them firm foundation. Those roots go deep. So like a big mighty oak tree in the, the, in the gale force winds, can sway and bend in the wind because it's got deep roots.
Jim Burgoon (26:50)
Right, absolutely. Absolutely. And so this goes back to…
Jeff Ross (26:51)
Fascinating.
Jim Burgoon (26:55)
the growth. goes back to defining where is the place I need to shore up. You know, I was in the military so I was a Coast Guardsman so, you know, in the Coast Guard we're on ships. I was on ship for two years I was stationed on one. So we got to travel all over the world and stuff and one of the jobs that we or one of the things we had to learn was how to shore. What that really means is when there's a hole, how do you patch the hole so the ship doesn't sink? And how do you do it within a few minutes because in the middle of the ocean you
Jeff Ross (27:00)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jim Burgoon (27:25)
You
don't get an hour. And so we went through all this training. I I remember one time they brought in this unit. was basically a half tractor trailer back.
Jeff Ross (27:25)
yeah, life or death.
Jim Burgoon (27:36)
They cut it open and they put us all in there. They gave us all these wood and all this, you know, different types of material. And they said, you have literally five minutes before this thing fills up to shore up everything. And now there were, you know, windows, so we weren't gonna drown, but they got the watch. But they said, if it reached the window, you're dead. And so, and they were like, okay, so what's this Liz? And they go, okay, blew a whistle.
Jeff Ross (27:52)
Yeah, that's my experience.
Jim Burgoon (28:02)
And then like three different places started shooting water into this thing. So we're, it was cold water too. So we're in this thing and we have to grab these materials, we have to do these things and we've got to shore this up, right? We got to put this together, patch it up as quick as we could. And here's what I want to say to that, because there's a big metaphor that I think is going to help you and your audience.
Jeff Ross (28:16)
⁓
Jim Burgoon (28:28)
We couldn't go into that had we not had prior training.
If we didn't get the basics, the fundamentals, right? I think there's too many people out there who want to learn all these depth and in-depth things and the deeper things. No, just, the fundamentals, you never leave the fundamentals. So because we learned the fundamentals of how to do certain things, and then once we learned it to a place of expertise, we were allowed to be more creative. So the reality was, when we were faced with the situation, we went right into our training.
So this is where like your journaling, the evaluated experience, defining growth. And I would add to your growth if you really want to grow intentionality and action.
Reading six books doesn't cause you to grow. It's what you do with those six books that allow growth. That's a side note. Applied knowledge. It's not just knowledge. If you get more knowledge, you're like a librarian or a book, but it's applied knowledge. But anyway, this is where it rubber meets the road. So all of your stuff in your quiet time, in your growth time, in your journaling time, are to really prepare you for when life hits you in the face, what are you going to do?
Jeff Ross (29:17)
applied knowledge, right?
I love that. And once again, it comes back to that analogy there with the submarine, you know, the internal versus the external pressure. ⁓ Yeah. Fascinating.
In the Hero Makers, in one of the principles that we're doing here in this season, yes, we talk about creating leaders, not just followers though. You know, so like it's not about the, you know, getting up there and being the celebrity and having a bunch of people following you and you know, the parade's like, we've already talked about this a little bit, you know, with those accolades. And I get that that's part of the byproduct of it all, but here's ⁓ the coming back around to keeping the right focus, the right heart of it all.
is around this hero makers conversation where we're not just focused on being the hero, but actually creating other leaders who create other leaders. So what are some of the foundational principles someone needs to be, needs to become, sorry, what are some of the foundational principles that we need to have to become a hero maker? What are some of the traps that you could probably see someone falling into on this conversation?
Jim Burgoon (30:46)
So the trap, think, number one, is thinking more of yourself than you ought to. this is it goes into, if we were walking around and like, I'm a hero, I'm a hero, I'm a hero, eventually you'll believe your own news and you'll fall. Shoot your own horn, believe your own news. Because if you watch The Hero's Journey on any type of movie, some of your favorite movies, it's when the hero got arrogant when everything fell apart.
Jeff Ross (30:51)
Hmm
taking your own horn.
Jim Burgoon (31:13)
So this is where it becomes a good summation of my abilities, my humility and things like that. So to be a hero maker and some of the principles, I would say number one is really constantly work on humility. You're never gonna be as good as you think you are and you're never as bad as you think you are. It's like somewhere in the middle. Constantly work on that. Number two is work on your character.
Jeff Ross (31:32)
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (31:38)
I will hire 100 % or work with anybody who has good character even if they're not competent. Matter of fact, I, it's, yeah, like you can be developed. Matter of fact, which is really funny because I just posted this today. I said, my post I think on my Facebook page, I said, quit saying you're humble if you keep handing leadership roles out to people who have chemistry and charisma and no character.
Jeff Ross (31:44)
Yeah, skill can be developed.
Jim Burgoon (32:02)
Right? So I think character trumps everything. So if you're not working actively working on your character, you will never be a hero because you will never get out of the pit. Because every time you try to get out, you will fall. So work on humility.
Jeff Ross (32:05)
Yes, 100 % agree.
Jim Burgoon (32:19)
And then there's the development stage. Don't ever stop being a student. Even the master is still a student. I think that's where we lose it. Even like I was a martial artist for a while, even my sensei when I was learning, he had a sensei. There's always this thing of I'm never gonna reach the pinnacle, but I'm always growing to get there.
Jeff Ross (32:29)
Yeah!
Yeah, I love that. Even like even Dr. Joseph McClendon, who's my mentor in that space and also a client, I'm doing some work for him as well. You know, he's like 76. He just won an award. didn't even recognize, he didn't even know he won this award for being one of the world's top 10 coaches in the world in the personal development space. And, you know, one of the things that he says at 76, been doing this for 30, 40 years is I'm still just a student.
Jim Burgoon (33:02)
Sweet.
Mm-hmm
Jeff Ross (33:11)
You know, of neuropsychology, that's his field, right? So he's still just a student and I love that. So we're either green and growing or a ripe and rotten conversation. Then let's put ourselves into spaces where we're intentionally green and growing.
Jim Burgoon (33:24)
That's it.
Jeff Ross (33:24)
Hmm. Now, one of the things that I reflect on quite deeply is, is, is legacy legacy impact. And this conversation right now is part of that legacy piece, right? Legacy is not when we're gone. It's what we do at our time. So, you know, I had an opportunity and I, and I see it as an opportunity. I had a bit of a heart attack scare about 12 months ago. And I reflected on that. It's like, well, what, what do I want people to say about me when I'm no longer here?
You know, and what's on my tombstone? And I, and I quite put it down to one word. It was hero maker. And that's, you know, hence this whole conversation around this. And, and I don't ever see a space where I ever retire from that conversation. Like, this is something I'll do to the day I die. And I'm no longer needed here on planet earth. So let's talk about legacy a little bit. What does leaving legacy look like for you personally, whether that be legacy and faith family or impact.
Jim Burgoon (34:03)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeff Ross (34:23)
And how can our everyday leaders stop building legacy now?
Jim Burgoon (34:27)
So legacy is much bigger than my lifetime. Legacy is what I'm doing now that will last generations.
And we've got to think generational. of fact, Ecclesiastes, even if you guys are here as hero makers and you don't know the Bible or you're not a Christian, I do want to mention there are some great principles in there. One of these principles is found in Ecclesiastes 3 where it says, was placed in our heart, right? Which means every decision we make has an eternal value to it. So therefore, I can understand that the decisions I make today have ripple effects throughout the course of
Jeff Ross (34:48)
course.
Jim Burgoon (35:05)
everybody that comes next to me all the way down. And so with that being said, if I'm gonna create a life that has legacy, a life that outlasts me, then I've gotta make decisions that are going to really be like, what are the things that I can do that will move on? And so like writing books. Personally, that's a legacy marker for me. I wanna write books. Matter of fact, I think I've said I wanna write 50 books before I die.
Jeff Ross (35:08)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
I love that go.
Jim Burgoon (35:35)
And so that's a legacy marker. Why? Because the knowledge, even if it's uploaded to AI, it's still my words. The deal is that that will live longer than I will. It's transferring my...
Jeff Ross (35:47)
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (35:51)
beliefs, my habits, my different things, and not even just that, teaching to my kids, I'm gonna pass those on to my kids, but I'm teaching my kids how to evaluate those things, how to think for themselves. These are all legacy things. And so like you were saying with the heart attack, when faced with your own morality or mortality, it becomes more important because you don't know if that's gonna happen again, if it's gonna be quicker, do I really have this much time? So we gotta start asking,
Jeff Ross (36:18)
Yeah.
Jim Burgoon (36:21)
And when we start asking hard questions like simply, what do I want to leave? Because in leadership there's, ⁓ I think it was, who was it? ⁓
Elmore, John Elmore, not John Maxwell, was Elmore. Tim Elmore, Tim Elmore, who was actually John Maxwell's ghostwriter. So if you read the Maxwell Bible, Tim Elmore actually wrote it off of John's principles. I met Tim, great guy. He wrote something called the Habitudes, and he calls it life sentence. And he explains it, says basically what your tomb says is he said, when you die, he said, everybody gonna go eat potato salad, you know?
Jeff Ross (36:42)
Mm-hmm.
Okay cool.
Jim Burgoon (37:03)
because that's what they do at funerals for some reason. But they're going to say one sentence about you. What sentence is that that you want to make them say? And this is where we start evaluating what is that one sentence? And in light of that one sentence, what actions do I need to take in order to accomplish that? And when we start really honing in on that, we start jettisoning things that don't.
lean into that. All the nonsense that we do, we're going be like, no, that's gone. And we start really focusing on does this push me towards that sentence or push me away.
Jeff Ross (37:32)
Yeah.
That's fascinating. It's very contradictory to the consumeristic, hedonistic culture that the Western world is very much consumed by. Because it's basically the whole idea of it is to live for now. There is no tomorrow. We might as well have the fun we can have right now. And that was my 20s and my early 30s. I did live for the now. And I partied hard, I gambled hard, I did all of that. Rockstar lifestyle.
Jim Burgoon (38:05)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Jeff Ross (38:07)
Uh, versus, you know, the conversation here now is it's about something bigger than me. And it's about something bigger than us. It's about legacy. It's about impact. It just shifts the total thinking of it all. And, and, and the statement that I am left with here and something that's actually quite, you know, those statements, right? You hear them and you keep repeating them about several times and say something either for you or for the world either way. And it's something that Mark Cuban said, and now I'm very badly paraphrasing here, but basically to sum it up.
Jim Burgoon (38:18)
Right, it does.
Jeff Ross (38:36)
was creation is life, consumerism is death. Now, we're, know, obviously you can't all be all creation. We can't all be consumerism is somewhere in the middle of that conversation. But the point of the matter is if we're just consuming and that's all we're doing, then we're leading towards a ripe and rotten lifestyle versus being in a space where we're creating and creating is all about impact and legacy and, and gross.
Jim Burgoon (39:01)
Right?
Right?
Jeff Ross (39:03)
And
that's what's green and growing type sort of conversation, right? So it's an interesting dichotomy.
Jim Burgoon (39:07)
Yeah.
It really is and one thing I would add to that which is again, you're right. I love what you're saying. like green and growing or ripe and rotten. I love that. That's a great analogy. And one thing I would tell you is like the reason why we're so confused, why we can't decide, why we feel stuck is we have too many voices. And consumerism increases voices.
Jeff Ross (39:32)
Mmm.
Jim Burgoon (39:33)
because you maybe listen into your influencers on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube and podcasts and this. And you know what a lot of people aren't doing is they're not running to the Bible to get the only voice that they need. And so we're getting all the truth, right? And so we're getting all these voices and we're getting all this stuff and here's what it does. It creates burnout because now we're overdoing it and we're burnt out. We're completely like ready to give up and we're so confused.
Jeff Ross (39:46)
Yeah. The truth. The water. Yep.
Yeah!
Jim Burgoon (40:03)
and we're so stuck, it's because we were created to grow. We were created to be creative. We were created to pour out. So if you're being poured into all the time, then you're really one of the, it's like that old cartoons where you're like one of those people that keep getting fatter and fatter and fatter until eventually you explode and you leave a mess, nothing of beauty.
Jeff Ross (40:10)
Life!
Mmm.
Yep.
Hmm. I think of it as you're describing, yeah, our life's very much like this. This only works if it gets charged up. You know, it's got to get plugged into the power source, essentially the source of life. You know, in this case, the Bible and the truth of the word and God and Jesus, you know, we've got to continue to be plugged into the source to be able to, you know, be nourished, to be fed. But then at that same time, we've got a job to do.
Jim Burgoon (40:31)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Jeff Ross (40:53)
you know, which is to go out into the world to, you know, operate out of overflow instead of depletion and, and, ⁓ you know, go and create legacy mission focused first instead of transactional conversations.
Jim Burgoon (41:03)
Right?
Absolutely.
Jeff Ross (41:09)
May I definitely have to have you back for a part two to this whole conversation. feel like we're only just getting started. ⁓ Right. We're running out of time. So for this episode, is some last words of wisdom that you'd like to leave our audience and we'll definitely have you back for a part two.
Jim Burgoon (41:15)
right back scratching the surface.
Well, I appreciate that. ⁓ Words of wisdom is don't be overwhelmed by where to start. Start small and grow. Because diligence is doing something, doing little things consistently to create big things. So instead of trying to tackle the big thing, start small, be intentional.
Jeff Ross (41:38)
Yes.
Jim Burgoon (41:52)
be very ⁓ evaluatory of it, but start small and take one step at a time and before you know it, you're gonna look back and you're gonna be like, how did I get this far? It's because you were diligent, you started small, you didn't hate small beginnings, and eventually you're gonna look back and you're gonna be like, look how far I've come. Now you've got a long way to go, but look how far I've come. So that would be the wisdom I would leave for people. ⁓
Jeff Ross (42:09)
Yeah
Absolutely beautiful. Thank you very much for just jumping on and saying yes to imparting some of your wisdom here. ⁓ You have your own podcast, so I want to give you an opportunity here to share a little bit about that and invite people to come listen to yours. So over to you.
Jim Burgoon (42:35)
Alright, so I appreciate that. So my podcast currently is called Online Business for Christian Creatives. However, probably in the next couple weeks, it is actually shifting names. I'm rebranding it. It is called The Unshakable Life.
Jeff Ross (42:47)
I love that.
Hmm.
Jim Burgoon (42:50)
Because as I get deeper and deeper, have been a career, and this is for you guys who want to listen, I have been a career developer, equipper. ⁓ I have a life of resilience through all the stuff I've been through, all the stuff my wife has been through. And all I want to do is help people overcome the anchors and the barriers that keep them from doing all that God wants them to. And so to do that, we've got to create an unshakable life. And so the podcast name is moving into Unshakable Life.
And you can find that on leadwithjim.com, that's my website. Or you can look on it on Apple. ⁓ It should be changed within the next week. So, that's it.
Jeff Ross (43:31)
That's absolutely brilliant.
will make sure all those links in the show notes and we'll keep it active and updated in that space as well. But one of the things I love about this whole hero makers conversation is we've got to look for ways to collaborate, not compete. So, you know, thank you very much for jumping on and saying yes. Thank you very much for sharing with our audience, your podcast and listeners. Make sure you go and subscribe and tune in because this is how we can connect with each other and support each other. I don't know everything. Jim doesn't know everything.
But together we can go do that life, that journey together. And we can be challenged. can have that safe space to doubt, question, to challenge, to evaluate and discern which way we need to go towards working towards the greater good impact here. So thank you very much, Jim. Before we wrap up, always like to sort of close out this sort of purely selfish as well as, you know, towards our audience, but I'm always looking to add to my book collection.
What's a book that you're currently record reading or you recommend everybody should read? I don't want to stay away from the more popular ones. I want to get into the more, you know, obscure ones. What's a book you recommend?
Jim Burgoon (44:41)
That's a good question because I'm
actually within a few books right now. ⁓ One of my favorite, actually one of my favorite all-time books, it's a short book, it's a short read ⁓ by I think the guy's last name is Edwards, it's called Tale of Three Kings.
Jeff Ross (44:56)
Okay.
Jim Burgoon (44:56)
⁓
It was one of the most powerful books I ever read and what it is, it's a story of David, Saul, and I believe it's Absalom. And the reality of it is he sums it up and says, do you want to be a spear-chucker?
Jeff Ross (45:05)
Yep.
Jim Burgoon (45:12)
Or do you want to be somebody who's encouraging and uplifting? And so he goes through the story of it. when I was a young believer in the faith and when I was growing up, ⁓ it was one of the most impactful books I think I ever read at the time. So it is in my top three. And I highly recommend everybody to read that one. And it's a short book. It's a very short book.
Jeff Ross (45:15)
I love that.
One of the most, I love that. have to definitely go read that. Another book that I recommend, whilst I'm here, that just comes to the top of the mind, is one of my very first ones I got into this space, is Jim Rowan's Seasons of Life. And I love that this whole conversation that we've done today essentially is looking at life and evaluating it and growing from it and maturing from it. But maturity only happens in participation.
And I would actually add to that maturity only happens in participation to community to be able to be something bigger than yourself. So, Jim, I love the way that you serve and the way that you share your life story through your podcast, through your social. And it's just been an absolute pleasure. As I said, we're only just starting to scratch the surface here. But for our listeners, this podcast has been hosted on Apple, it's been hosted on Spotify and YouTube.
And also thank you very much to our sponsorship and partnership with the Los Angeles Tribune, with the LATPN podcast network. Thank you very much. And you can find us all those places. Make sure you subscribe, you know, share this episode out with your friends and family. But more importantly, let's come back and have a conversation. Let's share with the insights and the wisdom that you've picked up from today's discussion and how you're going to look at applying that to your life. And if you want to connect with either myself or Jim,
We'll make sure that the details are in the show notes for you below. And it's been an absolute pleasure. And as always, stay caffeinated, stay legendary, and we'll see you in the next one.