In this raw and real episode of The Laptop Lifestyle Dad Show, Jeff Ross dives deep with men’s resilience coach Craig Whitney to explore what it truly means to lead as a man today. From being raised by donkeys (yep—actual donkeys) to confronting burnout and emotional drift, Craig brings powerful insights on building self-leadership, integrity, and strength that lasts. If you’re a husband, father, or leader who’s ready to drop the mask and lead with character—this is your wake-up call.
“You don’t rise to the level of your goals. You rise to the level of your training.” – Craig Whitney
“Drift doesn’t scream. It whispers.” – Craig Whitney
“The donkey’s strength is calm in chaos. That’s leadership.” – Craig Whitney
Craig Whitney – Founder of Next Level Coaching
Jeff Ross (02:49) All right. Welcome legends. It's so good to have you here. I've got a really awesome guest here today with me and we're just going to dive straight in. ⁓ I'm really pumped up to you to bring you to this week's Heroes Makers interview for season three for the Laptop Lifestyle Dad Show. Today we're joined with Craig Whitney, who is the founder of Next Level Coaching. Craig helps people unlock performance, build resilience and tap into their inner strength.
to level up in business and in life. And if you've ever felt stuck, if you've ever felt overwhelmed, if you've ever felt like you're running on empty, then this episode will give you the tools to bounce back stronger than ever before. So tune in live. Yes, we are live here in the HeroMakers community right now. Drop in your questions in the comments. Let's dive into mindset, habits and strategies that create true resilience and the next level.
top performance. So Craig, it's so awesome to have you here with us today, mate. We've been working pretty closely together there. I reckon about going on almost two years, but I love for our audience just to get in and understand you from your origin story. You know, what inspired you to step into the world of coaching and what sort of is the driving force behind everything that you do?
Oh, good morning. I'm still trapped in your intro music. So I'm a little bit flowy this morning. So it's got a bit of a, a bit of a jig to a bit of a vibe for the Wednesday morning for all those going to work. yeah. Origin story. What got me into the world of coaching was basically my own transformation, my own realization and implementation of how personal development is not just an ego fed, uh, sort of.
Ego fed role more or less a transformation through the soul and that can only be done through experience. ⁓ I myself learned through my own experience that transformation can only come through actual experience. And I don't recommend people going through pain and suffering. However, as a man on my mission in life and as a man amongst men, we must face those adversity moments and those true adversity moments where we have a fork in the road.
between life and death, good and bad, light and dark, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. So I want to get straight into this and talk about what I see is one of the things that lead to men's crisis moments really. And I think it's a really important topic to tackle. One of the things I see, especially in our Western world,
is where we're caught up with some sort of form of consumerism, individualism, idolatry, you know, we're sort of stepped away from this community tribe based stuff. And our world is very much pushing men especially to do it themselves. This whole me myself attitude is I believe one of the things that bring men down, especially into this crisis moment because
We're not designed or created whatever your beliefs are to do life alone. You know, we, we really do need to do it in a tribal sort of sense in a community sense. Right. What are your thoughts around this conversation here and what do you see that's happening? Yes. So I absolutely agree with the rise of the 21st century and tech and everything, all the convenience attention economy. It's coming to price and that price is lone wolf syndrome.
Uh, meaning traditionally, uh, four or 500, even a thousand years ago, men come together around the fire and we taught each other and the younger men through story, the stories of the hunt, the great hunts where the older man would take the younger men out on these hunts. These glorious hunts to feed the tribe. go off the wooly mammoth and et cetera. Sometimes they come back with a bag full other times they come back with nothing. However, there was always a story to teach.
The younger men from the older men. Yeah. I believe as a community, we've lost that essence through the evolution of the different ages and the evolution of technology, the evolution of screens and convenience economy. And it's had its detriment on our mental health and wellbeing. As men, we are not designed to do it alone. We are not designed to raise a family alone, let alone do life alone. We are all communal species. Yeah.
And yeah, I well put, you know, and I love the fact there that we've lost the storytelling component of it all. And I believe that we can have that in today's age, especially with technology. Like, you know, you've just got to find that tribe that you belong to or want to belong to and go do the work to be able to participate. I feel like, you know, one of the other things that really happens is quite a beautiful thing.
is when we are in that space where we found our tribe we belong to, that we now do what we can to contribute to the greater good of the tribe. And this steps us out of that me, myself, I conversation, it steps us out of that ego driven conversation and puts us into a space where it's servant hearted leadership and servant hearted attitude to, because it's all about the protection and the flourishing of the greater good. Now,
You were, you know, one of the stories that we've always shared. said you raised by donkeys. I love to unpack that a little bit deeper as well, but you know, it seems to me that you've had a really interesting experience and life story for polar opposite extremes of, you know, serving in tribe and community versus not. I love you to go a little bit deeper into that if you can. So that's the interesting perspective about me as I was raised by a pack of wild donkeys.
I'm an only child. I don't have any siblings. So I'm Mr. Independent and that Mr. Independent is still very, very strong in my life today. I do things as I see fit. I don't really rely on those. I just go about my own way. Hence, in a sibling society where I was raised in my foster care, that had its impact where I had to adjust to a family given environment where I had to learn things such as to share.
To be around siblings. I just couldn't cut ahead and do my own thing and I feel for all early child out there I get the frustration ⁓ We just do things by ourselves. It's just comes natural to us and where the donkeys come in or they were my family practically They were the ones I'd go to out in the paddock when time times of strife would happen in the house ⁓ My mother would have a have a mental health episodes and turn, you know, go psychotic and
and turned violent against myself or my father. And they were my grace, so to speak, and I'd go out. And they didn't do anything. They just were donkeys, humble and, you know, humble in the paddock just doing their thing. It's their energy that calmed me in those moments of need. And they taught me humility amongst the chaos and carnage. They taught me just to be present. And of course, their stubbornness and their cheekiness and their loyalty.
If they didn't want to do anything, they wouldn't do it. ⁓ The saying goes is a donkey, donkeys already read you by the time he's met you. That is such a true statement. He's already read your energy. And if he doesn't, if he doesn't like you, he doesn't like you. He'll put his head down and act accordingly. In retrospect to, to your energy. If he loves you, they'll be loyal as a dog to you. They'll, they'll, they'll walk with you.
They are very intelligent creatures and they have a brain of a four year old child. And that's the essence of my childhood. And as I go deeper into the study of donkeys and their behaviors, we can see that, know, donkeys in the history were the first domesticated animal of man. Three and a half, was it three and a half or four thousand years ago as pack animals and as companions to the tribe before the invention of the wheel.
And they're still used today in some areas of the world alongside their cross-bred cousins of mules and horses in particular in areas in the United States where vehicles and helicopters can't get to for firefighting services and things like that. However, ⁓ they're such intelligence species. They're just amazing to watch ⁓ in the paddock alongside their horse cousins where horses were bred initially as a prey animal. So that's why they were bred.
as for speed to run at the site of a threat or a donkey was created to challenge the perspective. He'd run 20 meters in the event of a threat, turn around, assess the situation, have a look. If it was time to defend, they go and defend. If it was time to avert, they would avert, et cetera, et cetera. And they'd always chunk the behavior and defend. That's why they make such great
⁓ companions for, for farmers, for the sheep, for the cattle. Yeah. even I've even heard of donkeys guarding chook pens for foxes. Yeah. because they have a donkey that used to sit in the stables with the horses there to calm them down. Yeah. Yeah. They have that calming effect amongst ⁓ anxious animals, such as horses. Horses are very anxious and they're very flighty animals. They have that calming effect naturally. And they had that calming effect on me naturally as I was growing up.
mom was very passionate with her donkeys. ⁓ she'd travel around to all the markets and festivals and give kids, ⁓ of disadvantaged families that little bit of extra joy. So I've traveled every single market, fight festival from, ⁓ Woodford up here in the sunshine coast throughout to cost Harbor and the banana festival and west of Tamworth of the country music and Glen Ennis for the Beaty's fest.
Sounds like you and I had a very similar sort of I did all the camp drafting, you know, every weekend we were at a different camp draft with the horses, you know, from all the way down south down to, where is it, Duniloquen, you know, and all the way as far as north is to Womba and everything else in between. we did a very similar sort of childhood in that essence. Would you say that, you know, having this sort of experience as a child,
Probably not knowing it back then, but you can probably see it to be clear now with your wisdom. Would you say that this is part of the start of your whole resilience journey, you know, and, and learning how to be resilient? Yes, definitely. Definitely. being calm amongst the chaos is the first sign of resilience. Being able to step back within the storm and assess your situation. definitely. So let's go a bit deeper with that. How do you define resilience? It's such a big word.
And I don't know if most people really understand that the term or, you know, go into the character like you do. So how do you define resilience and how do you define it in your work with your clients? Resilience is being steadfast in the moment. It goes deeper than the cheesy quotes getting around on the internet. It's, it's a state of mind. Yeah. ⁓
It's a state of mind and for body expression, it's being grounded in who you are. So solid as an oak tree, ⁓ oak trees are solid and they're deep rooted in a sway within the wind. That's a metaphoric example of being resilience and they take what's coming to them. ⁓ they stay there and take it and not react. I'll respond. Right. So it's a character trait. Yeah.
And one of the things I definitely see in our world and why it's becoming so divided, it's got nothing to do with extremism and all that sort of thing. That's the result of it all. What I see is what's got to do in doing some deep study in this is it's a character deficiency. ⁓ people have forgotten the deep seated characters, the characteristics that we need as a society and function in that space.
If we've got a bit of a character deficiency in around resilience as men, what can we do to help us to build that muscle? Because I believe that characters can, know, characteristics can be built upon when we identify where our weeks and weaknesses are and our strengths are, you know, my journey has been an example to that. Your journey has been an example to that. So what can men do, especially to help us to build that resilience muscle? What can I do? Well, the first thing is I'm very passionate on modeling.
⁓ As old school that is, is look at your models are and look at what you are modeling. As little boys in this day and age, little boys have taken out their natural environment to rough and tumble. We need to bring that back into society to rough and tumble and not worry about getting hurt to an extent. You know, play rough house more. We see this in the animal kingdom with young foals of horses and of donkeys of the equine environment.
Well, they roughhouse the miles roughhouse each other to gain that resilience and gain that tough exterior for the world to come ahead of them. We've developed in a society of the bubble wrapping style parenting or the helicopter, you know, don't do this, don't do that. I mean, I grew up in a world where you could ride in the back of the year, no one would say something or jump on the track. We used to get the bonnets behind the onto the. ⁓
Or dad would go jump in the user as a five year old. he go? He's a key son. Go and grab the you can get that out in the panic and go for a drive or jump on the tractor. Um, there's a, you know, big pile of logs over there and they tidy it up. Uh, put the blade on the way you go, push them into a heap ready to put, put, put fire to it or we'll go catch the horse. Uh, there's a couple of dogs go must some cattle, you know, barely seven or eight. Um, it's things like that.
And even getting bucked off a horse. mean, getting bucked off a horse can teach you a lot about resilience. And what do you do in the moment of, as the old man would use to say, hitting the dust. What do you do? Do you, do you have a cry? Uh, have a silk and, and, and, do you get back up and shake the dust off? Have you cry, get back on the horse and keep going. I mean, I mean, dad always told me, know, 13 busters on a horse before you even think about giving up. Um, of you used to tell me you had to learn how to fall a thousand times.
before even knew how to ride. And, ⁓ you know, I put that to the test because I put myself in some situations where I fell off some doozies and got bucked off. But, yeah, I tell you, I tell you here what you're saying, you know, and this, this trial by fire, this failing forward fast sort of culture is, what we're talking about here and putting ourselves in a position where we learn through experience, you know,
Like a kid, right? You tell them not to touch the hot stove and sometimes they've to touch the hot stove to realize, Ooh, that's, that's hot. And then they go, Ooh, okay. Through that experience, that's hot. don't touch the hot stove. And, ⁓ you know, I feel like learning itself is meant to be messy. It's meant to be a bit of chaos to go through that experience to get to the other side with the wisdom. Exactly.
And when we, when we do the whole bubble wrapping helicopter style, we're protecting the children. ⁓ we may be protecting them through control, but is that really protecting them? Cause it's just setting them up for failure in, in, in later on in life. Cause they're to go do all of that anyway, and make those mistakes anyway. So we might as well do that in a safe environment when we're parenting. Right. Yeah. So I want to come back around here to this conversation because I totally agree with you.
on all of this. But, you know, when I grew up in, you know, in a cowboy type environment, there was a statement that was basically thrown around amongst men and that was cowboy up, you know, hard enough, pretty much all, you know, but that can also go to the other extreme where that can turn into toxic macho, you know, sort of top behavior. So how do we go through the, the, the trial by fire?
How do we go through as men, especially where we, come into a space where it's, you know, definitely making sure that we are building that, that tough, excruciating skin to take the kicks, to take the blows without going into that male macho toxic behavior. How do we, how do we balance that out? Well, all the way we've got to experience it one way or the other. ⁓
There's no other way of, of, of teaching that and having the sting of failure. All right. Um, it's, it's not a contest where everybody gets a prize. There are winners and there are losers. Harsh reality. Sorry to all the moms and dads out there who love you kids. And we want you kids to win most definitely, but there's going to be moments out there where they're not going to get the trophy. Yeah. There's moments. The word love has got distorted.
So getting back to your question is how do we navigate that? Again, it's teaching you how to navigate failure, how to navigate loss, how to navigate that without going down that road of toxic masculinity, which is such a cliche these days, where it comes down to behavior rather than the term itself. That's what I wanted to address to you. Yeah.
Yeah, it's modeling. It's modeling on how to handle failure, how to learn from failure and rise through it, rise with it, not against it. You know, don't don't be resistant and bring out the self-coddling behavior it's taking on that that lesson as itself as I all that hurt that really hurt. I'm not going to do this again. All right. Coming off that horse hurt. Yeah, I'm going to hold on this time.
I'm going to duck next on that horse wants to take me under that branch and not get wiped from your best mate wants to throw a right hook, you know, pop it the first time on the chin, but the second time you duck and you learn. it's that hot stove experience. I get that. And the thing that's coming up for me here is as well as this toxic masculinity, when you really look at the, you know, the, sort of culture, once again, it's a, it's another result of character deficiency.
Whereas if you go back to, you know, 1920s or even back further, know, when men, men feel like they were men back there and they didn't have the, the softness about them. Yeah. That we see today. ⁓ they had that, I don't know what's the court that they had the character, you know, there and, and, here's the thing that really just jumped out for me. And I want to go deeper with you here is to, is the, the wiser men of the day.
They held the younger men to accountable responsibility and ownership. You know, these are all things of character. So when you, when you take that out, you've left with, you know, that toxic masculinity you've left with male pride, male ego, without sort of anything to check it in balance. Yeah. Can you unpack that a little bit further for us? Yes. Okay. So men of the early 19th century, 1920s and 1930s, they were very stoic.
And it was a very tough time back then with the World War One, First World War or the Industrial Revolution, which way, which lens you want to spin that. Then you had the Great Depression backed pretty much right behind World War One. And then you had the Second World War, pretty much straight after that. So the type of man that was back then, it's perceived in the media that they were stoic. They were almost mobster like, which was
Which is true to the aspect tough shell on the exterior. ⁓ hard men, very, very hard men. You, you, wouldn't cry. wouldn't dare to show emotions. Okay. This is what we call to the far extreme of the stoic, masculine man. He he's just an unemotional machine. And unfortunately, when we don't show our emotions, it has its detrimental effects that that can come out in behavior, which can result in toxic.
masculine traits itself. It's like a bubble when we push something down, we can suppress the bubble for so long. And then that bubbles going to somewhere along the line, pop back up much bigger and much nastier. So if we don't learn as younger men to express our emotions in some sort of way, ⁓ and in a clean way, such as learning to cry.
finding an outlet to be able to express that through physical exercise, sport, martial arts, or to some degree, then that emotion's gonna bottle up and eventually come out sideways to some degrees, to some point. Either on our loved ones, which I've experienced myself, or onto those around us in the community. And I feel this is where we're at in our society today.
to the far extreme of what we're seeing in the media and on the everyday aspect with byproducts of domestic violence, family violence, et cetera, where men don't have that structural family support behind them or they're just replicating the wounded model or the wounded healer as the generations go down. And they don't have the life skills in order to navigate today. They don't have that resilience or the life skills.
⁓ they're still getting shamed for crying as a man. I can't believe that in today's society. Crying is a very healthy trait. It's a very expressive trait. ⁓ studies have shown crying actually relieves stress and adds years to a man's life. Funny enough when 90 % of our activities take years from us. So that's one beneficiary, ⁓ trait that we can honor and to utilize. ⁓
Cause we want to be around as long as we can for our kids and our families. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, it's, comes back to behavior. It comes back to modeling, ⁓ resetting the modeling as far as I'm concerned. And that's where I'm passionate about. Yeah. So we'll get into that in a second, but I also, want to just really sort of tackle both sides of this conversation. So we've talked a lot about what can cause that toxic masculinity and in that environment, but you know,
in this side of two things, like, you know, I was bullied as a kid at school and, know, I know you've had your stories in that space and whatnot. ⁓ you know, which has helped us to be the men who we are today, you know, in that space to be that resilient and have that character that needs to be there. But we've also learned to do or learning, much should say, not learnt. Definitely. It's a daily thing where we're learning to go better, ⁓ learn to do the love, learn to do the vulnerability, learn to do the, you know,
the safe space where it's okay to cry and, and, ⁓ to be in, in essence, and I hate to use this term, but I can't think of a better term to learn how to be real men. Yeah. And real men do cry. Real men do show love. Real men do show empathy. Real men do show vulnerability, but they've also got the, the, the, the will and the strength there to protect the family when they need to, provide for the family. They can get fierce. They can get righteous. They can get passionate.
And they can have the strength that they need there when they need it to be in that stoicism, be steadfast, to be resilient, but also to be gentle and kind and compassionate. It's the, it's the full spectrum. And I believe that when you don't get the full spectrum, you get polar opposite extremes. You get someone who's really for better words, dickhead or an asshole to the other one who's
basically had their balls chopped off and everything in between. Right. So it's, how do we help the, the, you know, our men have today, especially in our young men of today to be able to get the full spectrum and have the robust character developing, you know, emotions and to be able to, and that's it, right. To be able to handle our emotions when we need to, and you know, be able to be real men. What are your thoughts on that and how can you unpack that a bit further?
So what defines a real man? Yes. A real man is honest. I look at vulnerability as this, as just being honest. Vulnerability is a bit of a marketing term these days. It's been thrown around as a, as a woo woo terminology. ⁓ I was modeled from my models to look at vulnerability as a man as just being radically honest with myself and with those around me, irrespectively of feelings, irrespectively of.
the time, you know, the time of day or the situation, just be for the better word, fucking honest, just be honest with yourself and others. Integrity, It's like, yeah, yeah. You know, ⁓ having leadership qualities. Like this whole conversation really is about leadership. Yeah. Vulnerability. If we go back to the, to our primal times and I've, I've mentioned this on a few other threads and copped a bit of flack because misunderstanding of it to be vulnerable. ⁓
in our caveman times is basically being vulnerable. I go outside my cave, not knowing what's around that corner. I'm vulnerable. And if I show vulnerability, I'm going to be someone's lunch. The dinosaurs lunch, the jaguars lunch, because I'm vulnerable. ⁓ Now jaguars and dinosaurs don't necessarily exist in suburbia today. However, the threats have evolved. That could be that boss could be taking advantage of someone's weakness.
It could be a fellow man who can walk in other room. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just I'm like that. Like it's exactly. Yeah. It comes to the fact that now I'm not going to be vulnerable. I'm not going to show my soft side to become prey for for another man or another predator. I'm just going to be honest in my situations. I could walk around a workplace and I'll just be honest. I'll be straight shooting with people. ⁓
It doesn't bother me. I will frame it in a way that softens the impact. So I don't look like a dickhead, ⁓ full of ego or an adult or however, I'll just be honest with who I am in my character. And that to me in my world is having that self leadership trait that I'm not going to, I'm not looking like prey. I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm not looking for a hug. Yeah. I'm just saying things how I see it. Yeah. Like it or not.
That's up to them, but that comes back down to, this whole conversation comes back down to one thing, learning to love and love is not like how the, the Western world has portrayed it to be on Hollywood and Cupid and all of that sort of thing. That's that really fluffy, wishy washy type sort of love. That's not love. That's not what I see. You know, love is everything that we're talking about here today is this love for lovers can be fierce. Love can be strong. Love can be.
soft, it can be empathetic, it can be compassionate, it can be vulnerable, but it's all characteristics of love this whole conversation. And you know, I know that you've had your times where you almost tried to kill yourself. I've done the same thing. And then we've both come out of that stronger for who we are today. And because of those scenarios, that darkness, if you will, we can now meet other men and look them in the eye and say, I love you.
You know, and because we know how to love ourselves in my time, you know, and that's, yeah, we've all got our beliefs. For me, it was the saving thing for me was learning to love myself, love something bigger than me, which I call God, and learning to love my fellow neighbors, you know, in that same way. And when I was in my ego, arrogant, sort of younger phase,
It was never about any of that. I didn't, I didn't love myself. I didn't know how to love anybody because I was actually an atheist at the time. And I didn't know how and that results is I didn't know how to love my neighbors or let my level fellow man or even woman or, or even my kids. I didn't know how to do that. So the last 10, 12 years, that's the pretty much the, the student road that I've been on is just learning how to love. then you mentioned this term modeling quite a few times.
And exactly that's what I've done is I've, I've come around other father figures and other men and other characters throughout, you know, this last decade to learn how to do what they do in the space of learning how to love in a healthy, really respectful way for, me, for my family and for the greater good. What's that sort of been for you and can you, have you got any wisdom you want to shine the light on that? Yeah, definitely. mean,
My saving grace was pretty much going through what I had to go through and remove the layers of the creature comforts from me. I don't know about you, but standing in front of a major straight naked, pretty much naked, having all the creature comforts removed from you is an interesting experience to have, ⁓ where there's no protection, nowhere to hide the, the so-called personal development world.
is forgotten in the moment. I've only got my own wits about me to survive. ⁓ you know, I've, I've heard the saying that in times of crisis, I don't rise to the heights of my dreams. I rise to the heights of my training and my training. Yeah. Integrated thinking like a soldier here integrated is what, I am in that moment, who I was in that moment in front of a judge and a magistrate is I wasn't a skilled man who I thought I was.
I had a head full of quotes and phrases from books and personal development and ego filled speakers. But what did that teach me? It just fed my ego. My ego had to be stripped away in that moment in front of a tough judge in order to be held accountable for my actions, in which I did. And going through the pain and the suffering from the aftermath of that to rebuild my character ⁓ for the resilience term to show who I was.
which I did, I did rebuild myself and then I had to go out and seek models. And model by definition is you don't copy someone to the T, you find elements within that person who you can model. You may not model that whole person, but there's maybe an element in that person who you can take away. So I've surrounded myself with leaders ⁓ and genuine.
people in my life that I feel that are genuine, can help me take myself to the next level, regardless of their speakers, their entrepreneurs. It's a, it really does bring home that statement that we become like those five people who are here. Yeah, we are who we associate with. Yeah. we choose those people very carefully because they will impact us negatively and positively. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ be very, very careful on who you choose.
They can be your family. can be your friends. They can be a spouse and your loved ones. So it's be mindful on who you have around you. Be very, very mindful. Yeah. I love how this whole conversation really just highlights leadership, you know, and I'm not talking about leadership because you've got a rank or a title or something like that. That's not, that to me is not leadership. That's just positional leadership. I'm talking about, you know, like leadership of.
you know, what we need to be able to raise up the community, to raise up the tribe, to, know, that rising ties, raise all ships type sort of conversations. And you can only do that when you can lead yourself. And you've got to be able to do that in a hard, messy work to be able to be in a position to be able to, it's not even like.
Like leadership, like you don't do it because you, you, have to do it. You do it because it's of service to the community and through your own raising and character building and the Testament to that, it's just that natural leadership starts to come. People start to want to follow you and attract to you because you've got that backbone for better words, in that space, because you've got the character that we, yeah. People are starving for what is.
Practical tools that you can help with, whether it be NLP techniques or whether it be MindShift or whether it can be anything around that for our listeners to take away today to help them to really boost up their performance through their character development.
Well, the first thing is, is look at your environment. Jack Welsh has a famous quote, I think it is, are the standard that you walk past. So what standards are you setting each day as a young leader? Look around, in your home, what standards are you putting forth? Is the house a mess? The kids running a mark? ⁓ Your significant, they consistently challenging you? What standard is that setting?
and then turn the mirror on yourself. Who am I and what am I setting as a standard? And start there. Because who you are at home is who you are at work. Yeah. The house is a mess, genuinely. The job's a mess. Or the mask is slowly taking, being taken off. This is what I see a lot in the leaders in the workplaces that I get around in. I see a lot of leaders with that mask on the verge of falling off.
Cause they're doing their best. Yeah. best to hold that act. Secret script line at home. They're going through a hell of a lot of stuff. ⁓ the performance, we call it the performance style leadership. They're performing not leading. So yeah, have a look at yourself is the very first tactic to a self audit. The quickest road to burnout is that performance style leadership. know from experience and burnout is a definition of regret. I'm regretting.
where I am in life, I'm regretting my full potential. could do better, be better and have better. Yeah. Cause we live in such a life where we flog ourselves stupid doing the do, do, do, do. And then wonder why we get to the have moment. The ladders up the wrong wall. And then we're looking down, ⁓ wondering how to appreciate what we've built. Yeah. And then we're, we're not being who we are in the moment.
I think I could sum up that whole one, the whole thing with, one word and it's connection. Yeah. Like, got to be connected to yourself to be able to be connected with others. ⁓ and that, again, that's that, that love, but connection also is respect. respect, self respect, right? Self respect. And, and it's not about expecting respect from you. I don't need that.
because I've got my own respect and I'm connected with myself. And through that, we can respect each other and we can be connected with each other and we can love each other and all that sort of thing. But it comes back down to that, that self, but not from a, myself and I protective mode, not from an arrogant ego driven mode. It's, it's, it's really is about.
You know, through that strength and resilience and the character of being connected by being loving by being in that space, I can now go do that better and bigger in a more powerful way in society with my, my friends, with my colleagues, with my loved ones and everything else in between. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Self-respect is huge. And also a self-compassion. Self-worth, you know, and, ⁓ that whole conversation. Cause I know when I used to, in my darkest moments, I
The story that I was telling myself was I was worthless. I was hopeless. I was useless. I was blah, blah, blah. And there was no respect or any self-worth or any self-value in that conversation. was all the opposite to all of that. But now it's like you can really change your story and change your life, but it starts with, well, actually I'll ask you, what do you feel like start with? I feel like it starts with having someone to see that worth in you that I see in you conversation.
to help you to model, to be able to bring in that. But where do you feel like that whole conversation starts with when you're so lost and you're so in that dark space? I think this is a really important conversation to have because there are so many people out there. What is the road back to coming back to that self-worth, that self-respect, that self-love? Because we had that as children and we lost that along the way. So what's the road back towards that?
It's being acknowledged and heard for who you are as a person, not your behavior. Your behavior, you can change your behavior anytime, any day. That comes with the decision, an instant decision. Do I want to change? Do I want to grow? Do I want to evolve? And we've come to a society where we judge people by their behavior, not as a character. And you can have someone who's had a very successful career, life of say 20, 30 years.
And that one instant, that one instant, everything comes down and the media, the world society, they just smear this one individual. Yet this individual, if you look back at their life, they've got accolades, they've got trophies, they've got certificates, they're well respected in the community. So I guess from, from, from looking through the lens of that, and I've been a product of that myself, ⁓ maybe two major mistakes in my life. I've had an overall.
successful 30 years, ⁓ in my life, it's being seen and heard, having that conversation with someone, whoever that someone is, whether it's a loved one, at least three people that we're intimate with. Yeah. At least, at least they can be our tribe that, you know, in that inner core circle, we need that is really important to be able to have that. And I feel like so many people go through life, myself included up until a certain point.
You know, I didn't have that. I didn't feel seen or valued or heard. could be in a crowd. I could be, you know, I was the, the, the Western, so for 97, 98, I was the junior national champion of Western pleasure for Australia. You know, I won all the accolades. did all the work to get those awards, but up there, you know, standing and getting those wards, you feel empty inside because nobody heard the cry or the hurt or the darkness that was brewing in there.
And we really need to have those three people. And I feel like we can have, especially as men have three other really powerful men in our life where we can just go blah in a safe environment where it feels safe and then we feel heard and we feel known and we feel trusted and all of that. You know, I'd say that that's what we really, really need. And I feel like, I really do feel like if we can work in this space as a tight knit community.
We can become a lot closer as a community and this whole divide through left and right and black, red and blue and black and purple and whatever else in between will, will definitely come closer and not further apart. So what was exactly right. So one of the universal fears is I don't belong. Okay. So if we look at the division, the left and right, black and white, whatever you want to stick a label on it, look at the unconscious versus them.
Yeah. Look at the unconscious vibes of that. They don't belong. They're fearing that they fear that they don't belong. That comes down to not being heard, not being acknowledged, not being respected. So what would, what would it look like if we gave them the space and acknowledge them for who they are, let them feel heard? Yeah, they can have their rage and rant and so forth. That's an outcome. Yeah.
What if we just heard them acknowledge them? I see you for who you are. That's a powerful question. What would happen then? Would the blinders come off about this division? I reckon so. I reckon so too. We've because we had space that we held space for that conversation and we can get rid of this us versus them. And, ⁓ really like
Learn some character development around seeking to understand the other person's point of view versus fighting. You know, the outcome of a fight is someone has to win, you know, whereas a good debate or even an argument is the goal of that is to seek to understand the other person's point of view. This is all character. This is all leadership. This is all that, that self-development conversation. Maybe we could go down a rabbit hole with hours upon hours.
I mean, I'm not saying we, we're not going to have challenging conversations in the society. This is how we grow as a society and evolve is to have those polarizing conversations. ⁓ in a safe space where people are filled, respected and heard, right? Exactly. Right. Exactly. Right. There are ways to do it in a way to honor growth on a worth.
And honor to, be able to be seen and felt hurt. Yeah. Rather than let's just go destroy cities or run around flags. Love you more hating. love what Charlie Kirk said. You know, he just got assassinated last week, but I love what he said there. The moment we stopped meeting at the table, the moment we stopped discord, the only, the only alternative is this hate and violence.
And we need to find a space where we can create a conversation where we take the violence, we take the hate, we take the hurt out of the conversation. And I know that this is hard to do. Governments can't do it, UN can't do it, politics really can't do it. It's a very complex, messy conversation. I'm not saying that this is just the end.
the band aid solution or anything like that. But I do believe if we can create environments and spaces where we can do the doubts, where we can do the challenge, where we can do the wrestle together in a respectful manner, we will come closer as a society, not further apart. We will start to lose these us versus them dialogue. And we will start to see that we all believe the same color and we're all just human at the end of the day.
You know, we're all just walking, talking skin bags, fully human emotion, trying to deal with that emotion and have some maturity around it and some wisdom around it to be able to help come back to that tribal essence. Really. Exactly. Exactly. Come back community, come back, come back to connection. That word again, This has been a deep conversation, right? And I feel like we're only just scratched the surface.
Yeah, certainly a rabbit hole there. Yeah. We need to come back. We need to have a part two, but I also think there'll be a part two. There'll be a part three. There'll be a part four. Go much deeper. Um, but we have run out of time for today. So just to wrap up and to sort of, you know, position you, think we've done it really well. I think the audience can see your heart and they can see what you're all about. You know, what you're made of, but I love you just to give you, you know, probably.
next three to five minutes to share what your vision is for next level. You know, what's your mission? What's your vision? Where do you see your business and you know, what you're creating going? the vision, the vision for next level coaching is it's, I have a vision over the next 10 years to impact 1 million leaders, male and female. ⁓ Impact their lives in a way to create.
United families to create United communities and for the greater good. ⁓ I feel drift is a massive issue we have in Australia. And so the question I get all the time is what is drift? Drift is, is a term for those unchecked behaviors, as unchecked compromises that just start the domino effect of behaviors. So it could be that one compromise of, I won't go to the gym today.
Or that's okay. I'll just let that bit of excess expense go from the boss's bank account or, or from the, or, or that expense is okay. The family account will just won't have that. And I won't tell, tell the Mrs. It's all those uncheck behaviors that slowly send the invoice at the end of the day, ⁓ because Drift does send its invoice and the invoice gets paid one way or the other.
Yeah, there is a massive cost to it. Everything has a cost. Yeah. Yeah. And my mission, my mission in life is, is I help forge fractured leaders back into their whole selves. So who you are at work doesn't match who you are at home and vice versa. Yeah. Yeah. You people build their character and develop that. It's not personal development. It's character development. No, it's certainly character development. So are you in alignment with your soul?
Integrity to the soul. Yeah. Yeah. Over the next 10 years, it's, it's basically changing leaders lives. And will I meet, will I meet disconnected men? Yes. Will I meet disconnected women? Yes. ⁓ it's like a bag of licorice all sorts in my world. I'm going to meet all different people from all different worlds. And I'm in the puzzle of working out how can I help these leaders help themselves because we are all leaders. Yeah. are. What you do, Craig is you don't fix people.
You, you don't, you, you, you, haven't even used the word broken. Like you were disconnected and you've been very mindful of that. And I, I recognize that and deserve that because people don't need fixing. They need building. They need development. They need that realignment. You know, those words that you've used, I agree with all of that. And you have a beautiful, calming way of doing that. That must be that donkey story coming back around that value. Right. It's the.
I love the way that you, you make people feel, feel valued and you have such a gift in that space, mate. And I know that you're only just starting to step into that gift. And, this is a, like, this is a hero maker. see, you know, this is someone who I can see that has found his passion. He's found his purpose. He's found his reason for being in life. And I actually don't see Craig ever retiring from this conversation. This will be, this will be something that he does till he's 90.
you know, bless him if he gets to that far, but, or even a hundred or even further, right? You know, technology these days, you just never know. But this is what happens when you go through hell storm, the fire, and you come out the other side of it, you essentially go through your hero's journey, you know, and you come through that abyss moment in that abyss, you find your, your true purpose, your true character, your true
space to it's a reason to being. And then you go develop that and you become a student of that. You become obsessed with that. You just want to go develop that. And Craig's just a beautiful example of what that looks like on the other side of that conversation. So thank you, Craig, for this amazing interview. I feel like this has been a really deep conversation and I've seen here a few comments. Daryl's definitely been talking about it. So, you know, thank you.
for just giving us space to hold this discussion. And this has just been one of those amazing interviews. So guys, if you're wanting to subscribe for the HeroMakers season with the LaptopLives.Dad show, make sure that you head to Apple, Spotify or YouTube. This will be posted on there as well. Right now, this has been done live in the HeroMakers community. We'll make sure we get it up on those channels very, very quickly. And also,
This podcast is brought to you in sponsorship and partnership with the Los Angeles Tribune as part of the Los Angeles Tribune podcast network. So thank you very much to Mo Rock and Michael Silvers for creating space for us to have a collaborative community where we can all go and support each other as poscasters. Thank you for your time guys. Stay caffeinated, stay legendary and bye for now.