In this episode, Jeff sits down with author, speaker, and leadership veteran Merv Jersak to unpack the real traits that define great leaders. From programming to project management to purpose-driven leadership, Merv shares decades of wisdom on how to lead people, not just processes. Whether you’re in corporate, entrepreneurial circles, or community service, this episode will equip you with timeless, practical, and heart-centered leadership skills. This is about legacy, integrity, and emotional intelligence — and how to apply it today.
“I found I could get more out of people by treating them as people and working above that line — being a leader rather than their manager.” – Merv Jersak
“True freedom doesn't come from having more — it comes from becoming more.” – Jeff Ross
“Emotional intelligence starts with observing how you react and replacing reaction with response.” – Merv Jersak
Jeff Ross (00:01) Hey, welcome back to the Laptop Lifestyle Dad Show. I've got an amazing guest lined up for you today. g'day Merv, how are you?
Merv Jersak (00:08)
I'm doing great. How are you, Jeff? From Down Under?
Jeff Ross (00:11)
fantastic from down under. Yeah, that's right. We've
got to, we've got to love this. How this is an international podcast. I love it. So guys, if you're just tuning in for the first time, this podcast is called the LaptopLives.Dad Show. This is the hero maker season. I'm out here interviewing amazing people like Merv, learning all about what it takes to become a leader who creates other leaders. It's a different conversation when you focus on it from this perspective. You know, we all go into leadership and thinking I'm going to be the leader.
But what I found in that space is what that culture creates is almost that rock star celebrity sort of culture. When you focus on being a leader who creates other leaders, it's all about otherness rather than egocentric. And so I'm here today interviewing amazing guests like Merv, unpacking what it takes to be a hero maker. So welcome to the show. We're about to get kicked off here with an amazing episode with Merv, but I'd love for you to go and subscribe if you haven't already.
where you can find us on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. And thanks to our amazing partnership with the Los Angeles Tribune, this podcast can be found on the LATPN network as well. So Murph, I always like to start with our guest here as a way to ground to our audience so they can get to know you as well. And the best way I've found to do this, Murph, is to share our stories. So Murph, what's your story?
Merv Jersak (01:33)
Well, I guess I'm a bit of a unicorn, Jeff, because I'm one of those people who went to school specifically for a specific degree and then stayed in that particular career path for over 40 years. It is bizarre. I don't know. I hardly know anybody who has stayed in the same career path. went to school. Not these days. No, I went to school for I got my degree in computer science, went into programming.
Jeff Ross (01:46)
That sounds really bizarre. I've never heard of someone doing that. ⁓
Not these days.
Mm-hmm.
Merv Jersak (02:02)
I loved your introduction. said that we, some people like to become leaders. I just wanted to be a programmer. I just wanted to make a little bit of money, have my weekends free, go fishing, go sw- you know, that sort of thing. But, ⁓ as I started to get into the system development environment and started working with teams, ⁓ my career really sprouted. I ended up doing projects, major projects for major organizations in, ⁓ two Canadian provinces.
Jeff Ross (02:12)
Yeah
Yeah, wow.
Merv Jersak (02:30)
and 20 U.S. states. So you can you can imagine the airline. I've got over four million miles on airlines. Now, what's that got to do with leadership? Well, I did start off becoming that program or what we call a developer today and ⁓ got promoted into team leadership, then into assistant project management, then into project management, then into project directorship, eventually becoming a vice president.
And each of those steps required me to hone my leadership skills.
Jeff Ross (03:05)
So was that leadership track, like you've climbed the corporate ladder essentially, was that very intentional or you just found yourself being promoted because you were just so good at your role?
Merv Jersak (03:15)
No, the company that I worked for at that time, I spent 14 years with one company. That's also a bit of a unicorn moment. But that company very specifically kept us in every career path for at least two years and groomed us for the next path. It wasn't like we would jump just because we were marvelous. We had to be grounded in what we knew.
Jeff Ross (03:21)
Mmm.
Yeah,
I love that approach. I think that's something we've lost in today's society. You know, in our, what I call our microwave society, everything, you know, everybody wants to be microwave really quickly and instant gratification. And I've had to learn in my own journey as well and other masters in their game that I talk to. Sometimes we need to slow this down and we need to learn how to do our apprenticeship, right?
Merv Jersak (03:57)
Absolutely. And I'll tell you where that really happened. It helped me a lot. I didn't realize it back then because obviously I was one of those that when I got hold of that bit, I wanted it. Where it really helped me was as I became a project manager and had teams of 30, 40, 50, 70 people, no one could fool me as to what they were doing because I understood every step of the way.
Jeff Ross (04:17)
Yeah,
there you go. I love that. I teach a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, to outsource, to delegate, but to learn how to do the fundamentals first. So when you are outsourcing or delegating that you're not having the wool pulled over your eyes, that, you know, you're not having someone leading you down the garden path because you know better, you've got a sort of a base understanding, right? So I love that you hit that point. And Merv, I want to say thank you as well.
Merv Jersak (04:33)
absolutely.
Jeff Ross (04:43)
for showing up today because you're not feeling that well, but leaders show up when they even though you're not feeling well. There's something that talks about a leadership gifting in itself there. So thank you very much for still saying yes to showing up and committing to this call. I really appreciate you.
Merv Jersak (04:58)
You're welcome, Jeff. I accidentally picked up a cold when I was in the tropics on vacation. And the worst thing in the world is a summer cold. And I brought that home with me. But I'm here. I'm enjoying this. I'm enjoying this.
Jeff Ross (05:10)
Yeah, I must
admit I was a little bit sick last week myself. I think I might have got a touch of COVID. Actually, I don't know. The whole house got sick. But anyway, we're actually on a big vacation in about a week's time as we're recording this episode. And so we're coming up to like a bucket list adventure. My wife and I are set up to do this road trip from LA to Miami. It's been a dream trip of ours that we've wanted to do for a while.
And then I got sick last week and I've just gone, no, I don't want to be sick on this trip. Anyway, it's all good. We recovered. We're all good. We're going off in a couple of days and everything's going to be great. But that's part of life. It's also part of leadership, right? It's, it's, what I call stepping up above the line culture. It's, you know, above the line is a space of training around ownership and accountability and responsibility. You know, letting your yes be your yes, being a person of integrity.
below the line is blame, excuse and denial. And I know through my own experience, human nature, there are times where I wanna be below the line and it's quite comfortable to be below the line, but it takes something to say, no, I'm gonna rise above it, I'm gonna step up. You you've just started to, you just published a book on all things leadership. And so, you know, some of these principles I'm talking through, I'm sure you cover them in your book, right? Can you give us some sort of insight and wisdom to...
how you play Above the Line.
Merv Jersak (06:37)
Well, think, let me go back to my story. Maybe that'll help also to set the context. Because one of the things, and you also have an IT background, don't you?
Jeff Ross (06:47)
I wouldn't necessarily call it programming like yours, but I could definitely build out funnels and websites and do that sort of thing, yes.
Merv Jersak (06:55)
So one of the things that we were taught, and I'm talking back in the 1980s and 90s, so that goes back a ways, but we're taught ⁓ on time, within budget, at all cost. And so a lot of that meant you were managing people to make sure you deliver the product to your client on time, within budget, at all costs. And the all costs often meant at the cost of people.
Jeff Ross (07:19)
Mmm.
Merv Jersak (07:19)
And so
what I learned from that, as I watched not only my own performance, but that of those around me and fellow project managers, I noticed that that didn't work very well because we would lose people. They would burn out and leave.
Jeff Ross (07:32)
You lose the human
element, hell-el-min-a, human element, right? You're just focused on the bottom line. Mmm.
Merv Jersak (07:37)
Exactly. And so
having learned that, and it took me a while, you know, it took me a few years, but that's where the whole and let me hold up my book, Lead Smarter, Lead Smarter, Not Harder. The idea being is that I looked at essential skills of leadership, not the process skills of management. The below the line was to me what you described as below the line to me, that was the
Jeff Ross (07:46)
There you go, lead smarter, not harder.
Mmm, big difference.
Merv Jersak (08:05)
process part of the management come come heck or high water make sure it happens, right? but I found I could get more out of people by treating them as people and Working above that line being a leader rather than their manager
Jeff Ross (08:10)
Yeah.
Right. So I've gone through management school and all that sort of thing. And I know in my toxic traits, I can micromanage. I know I'm guilty of that and I'm aware of that. So I've evolved and I've done a lot of work on that space. And part of that journey for me was learning how I was wired. know, so doing things like the Enneagram profile, the Myers-Briggs types profile, figuring out what my...
my strengths are, also figuring out what my toxic traits are and all of that sort of thing. So this is what you're talking about, right? It's talking about the human equation of this whole conversation. And essentially for me, the way I like to sum it up is I learned to love myself so I could learn to love something bigger than myself so I could learn to love others and operate out of this energy of love versus fear. And I think this is a really important conversation that needs to be had, especially in this leadership circles.
What are some of your insights that you can add to that conversation?
Merv Jersak (09:18)
Well, just kind of jumping off what you just said. In fact, in the book, after I kind of describe what I mean by leadership, and by the way, I throw in a chapter there on common sense because there's so much non-common sense.
Jeff Ross (09:25)
Mmm.
I know
right? That's a funny paradoxical thing.
Merv Jersak (09:36)
I prefer to have uncommon common sense, meaning it's rare, uncommon. But immediately go into and again, jumping off your last point immediately going into what is called emotional intelligence. And that really has two parts. One is know thyself. And once you know thyself, then you can relate to or externalize to other people and bring them into that equation so that you can understand their motivation.
Jeff Ross (09:40)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Right?
Hmm. Yeah, some powerful conversations there. And I know that there's some sort of really awesome stuff that happens with your belief and your posture and your, confidence when you know yourself and you can operate out of your, your genius zone, uh, space and your heart space. Um, these are skills that I believe that should be taught at school, but probably aren't. And, uh, you know, so I know as a father, you know, three young boys, you know, 13, 12 and nine.
These are some of the things that we're already starting to work on as a family. And straight away by them learning how their strengths, knowing themselves in self-evaluated self wisdom space, I can already see their leadership gifting being activated right away. And you can see them performing better in school and their circle of friends. you know, my oldest son, Harrison, he's got designs of being a rock star, like all of us do at that age.
But I can actually see him facilitating that dream and actually seeing him actually becoming a rock star and doing all that just because of these soft skills, these emotional intelligence skills that he's learning to master the craft of communication. And I put up a post on Facebook the other day and I'm going somewhere with this, so bear with me. I put up a post on Facebook the other day. A lot of entrepreneurs, they wanna learn how to do the marketing. They wanna learn how to do the social media. They wanna make sure their website's right. They wanna make sure the mechanics right.
But I've come to learn in my 18 years of doing this, the fundamental essential skill that we need to master is our communication. And that starts with that mindset and posture and belief and all of that. Essentially, how can you lead anybody if you can't lead yourself conversation? So do you have some tips for our audience here to be able to help them to unpack this and learn how to become better effective communicators from a space, a position of leadership?
Merv Jersak (11:59)
Well, that's I'm laughing now because the next chapter of my book after emotional intelligence is communication. And I split it into written and I split and in personal communication, including public speaking. what.
Jeff Ross (12:04)
Hahaha!
I love it. And guys, I haven't read this book yet, by the way.
Well there you go. It's already a great
book. I already know it's a great book.
Merv Jersak (12:23)
And that's only halfway through. I think what I found with communication, again, going back to emotional intelligence, the empathy that has to come through the understanding where the person is coming from. And what I also understood from learn and learn this the hard way, by the way, is I messaging versus you messaging. You know, if I say you did this wrong versus this is how I felt about your activity or your action. There's a whole different messaging.
Jeff Ross (12:33)
Mmm.
Ooh, powerful.
Mmm.
Merv Jersak (12:53)
One is a blame
Jeff Ross (12:53)
Mmm.
Merv Jersak (12:54)
game. One is a I'm here to help you game. So.
Jeff Ross (12:57)
Servers,
a bit of servers not control. Yeah
Merv Jersak (12:59)
Correct.
Yeah. So to me, iMessage, and that, by the way, that comes through in your ⁓ written skills as well, in your written memos or, yeah, all of that stuff. I was at a conference on Saturday, and one of the people said, take a transcript of, say, a speech that you've given or a presentation you've given, and then just have Word go through and count the number of i's and count the number of u's.
Jeff Ross (13:08)
course it does. course it does. Mmm, that's powerful.
Merv Jersak (13:27)
you know, me's or ours, that sort of thing. And if you are more than two to if you are less than two to one, you ratio to eye ratio, you're too much in eye focus, right? You have to be able to talk to people. You have to be able to relate to them as opposed to just talking about yourself. So one.
Jeff Ross (13:45)
That's
a really good tip. I'm actually going to have to go try that myself. That's good record of account keeping in that space and inspect what you expect, you know, catching yourself on that. love that. ⁓
Merv Jersak (13:54)
Yeah. Yeah. Little different
than the iMessage versus you message. You you did this to me versus I felt this way. But in terms of, again, when you're publicly speaking, you want to be able to make that message go to you as opposed to just focusing on i. So yeah, it's great, great, great tips.
Jeff Ross (14:01)
Mmm.
That's brilliant. So I've been a student of leadership in myself in my 20 years and still very much just a student really end of the day. But I've consumed a lot of material, a lot of content on this space and I've applied a lot of the lessons that I've learned along the way. One of the things that has been really valuable for me and something I find myself falling back on teaching other people as a mentor all the time is basically doing their internal health check.
Right? So if we want our external world to be successful, right? You know, looking the part, then most of the time it's not external pressures that are our problem. It's always internal. And this is going that know yourself going inwards. So, you know, the internal health check is, is to get the, the flywheel if you're in the gear working. So the outer gears can work a little bit more fluid. So, you know, internal health, right? Emotional, spiritual, financial, physical, and relational in those areas of health.
You know, what are your, your sort of takeaways, your insight wisdom that you'd like to share on getting this part of the, the, the leadership journey, the know yourself journey, right. And working in a space that helps you to, to, be more fluid and grow in this space. Cause I know from my own journey, from someone who wants to to kill himself to the person I am today, you know, working on this, this internal health area has been one of the things that have helped facilitate my own growth.
Well, I'd love to unpack this a little bit deeper with you.
Merv Jersak (15:40)
Well, I probably have several areas in that. One I know is that over the years, I have observed my reaction in certain situations. And ⁓ I have a quick trigger in terms of getting my ire up. I have this sense of it has to be right. you know, yeah, that righteous indignation. And in my youth, that would come out.
Jeff Ross (15:50)
Mmm.
Yeah, I get that. righteousness almost, yeah.
Merv Jersak (16:07)
Sometimes in anger, sometimes in sarcasm, sometimes, you know, just not a very you focused approach. Right. so. Right. And having watched myself or observed myself do that, and actually having watched other people react, I learned then to internalize that and come out with more of a question as opposed to a response, you know, as opposed to a reaction.
Jeff Ross (16:13)
more reaction versus response.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, it's
funny you say that. I've done the same thing.
Merv Jersak (16:33)
Yeah,
come up with it. Just a response that way. So that's one thing. And that's part of that know yourself aspect. I think the other thing is I get up early in the morning, very early. People people look at my white hair and say, well, yeah, you probably do get up early in the morning because old people do. But no, I get up very early in the morning and I spend time. I'm very I don't want to say spiritual. I want to say relational with the God above.
Jeff Ross (16:35)
Yeah, yeah.
Mmm.
Yes.
Yep.
Merv Jersak (17:02)
and in doing
Jeff Ross (17:03)
Yep.
Merv Jersak (17:03)
so, I spend time in the Old Testament, the Jewish Testament, as well as the New Testament, and just kind of ground myself for the day. And that really helps in how I react to people during the day.
Jeff Ross (17:12)
Yeah.
I love that because actually I'm
working to be an accredited pastor myself. actually, my wife and I started an online church about 18 months ago. And, um, you know, I was an atheist, uh, 11 years ago and now, you know, it's church planning, right? It's a radical journey in that space, but part of what you just said there, spending, getting up early, I've done this now for the last decade, getting up at four 35 o'clock in the morning, spending the first half an hour in the word of God and what I call soaping.
You know, I read it, I read a chapter a day. I look for the piece of scripture that that living word speaking to my heart and I don't just take it in. look for ways to actually apply it to my life. And, know, I think that's a big thing for, for leaders, right? We, you leaders are readers, but we're also in that space. I learned a long time ago. I don't want to just be a sponge, just consuming a lot of information. I want to be in a space where I'm actually going from informed to formed or forming and that space. Right. So.
Merv Jersak (17:54)
Yes. Yeah.
Jeff Ross (18:15)
Tony Robbins says it all the time that information is great, but it's only in the applied information space that we actually get results. And that's why I love that. So for our audience, I love you to let us know what do you do in this space to be able to help you on your growth journey. And if getting up at joining the 5 a.m. club and spending some time there in the word or meditation or journaling, whatever that is, I highly recommend it has been something that's been a huge asset to me. And it sounds like it's been a huge asset to you, Murr.
Merv Jersak (18:44)
Yeah, I, one of the things I do is I follow various reading plans that take me through the entire Bible every year. So every year for the last several years. Yeah, it's called you version, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So I go, I go through the, and I'll tell you what, when you get into some of those, like, is it the Chronicles where you have to go through 4,000 years of.
Jeff Ross (18:49)
Mmm.
Yeah, the Bible app, that's a really good one. Yeah, that's the one I use, yes, EU version. Brilliant tool.
the listicles
of it all. I every time, I'll freely admit, every time I go, God, do you really want me to read this?
Merv Jersak (19:16)
But, you know, I listened to a gentleman a little while ago, and the reason it's there is now they're finding archaeological digs, finding those exact names and relationships. So it's like it's ⁓ proof of the truth of what we're reading. So, yeah, I spend time in that. I spend time thinking through what I just read. I do jot down. I've got a journal of the where I jot down some things. And quite frankly, I probably spend more time praying about what I
Jeff Ross (19:24)
Right.
Fascinating yeah
Mmm.
Merv Jersak (19:45)
messed up yesterday and not to do it again today.
Jeff Ross (19:49)
Yeah, I'm guilty of
that too. Yep. Definitely a work in progress. For sure. So it sounds like, you know, we've been on similar sort of journeys. You're much further ahead of it, of course, but ⁓ on that leadership track. So I've, I've, I've learned, I like to learn from a lot of the greats and you're definitely going to be on that list. I can't wait to get your book to read from it. But, some of the, the, the people that I've aspired to learn from like Zig Ziglar, ⁓
Merv Jersak (19:53)
Yeah. ⁓
Jeff Ross (20:16)
Patrick Lencioni was another book that really comes to mind. ⁓ I love all things John Maxwell, all things Jim Rowan. So who have been some of your mentors that you've been reading through or aspire to be like? Who have helped shaped your conversations and the person you are today?
Merv Jersak (20:34)
My reading is very eclectic. ⁓ John MacArthur, just passed away. John MacArthur is a California, fairly well-known pastor here in California. ⁓ Scott McCain. Scott McCain is a well-known, he's part of the National Speakers Association Hall of Fame speaker.
Jeff Ross (20:37)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yep, I've heard
of Scott, yep.
Merv Jersak (21:02)
Yeah, Scott, I follow Scott's book. He's got three or four great books in terms of being iconic in your profession. ⁓ Probably and Tony, Tony Robbins. I'm looking, I've got ⁓ one, two, three, four, five shelves of books here that go to the ceiling. I'm trying to pick out some things, but yeah, it's just people who are very positive in their approach and very
Jeff Ross (21:08)
Mm-hmm.
Of course you have.
Of course
Merv Jersak (21:30)
quite frankly, very wise in their approach to applying. Applying is the word you use.
Jeff Ross (21:36)
Yeah,
yeah, I love that. And so you just launched your new book. You're about to launch a new podcast in a few weeks. Tell us a bit about your podcast and where you hope to see that going. Like give us a bit of a vision cast and opportunity for a bit of a plug.
Merv Jersak (21:50)
Yeah, based again, based on the book. Well, let me let me back up again. I worked with a colleague for a while on the project management body of knowledge. Now, does that not sound enlightening and just enthralling and something you'd want to speak about? Yes. But we did one hundred and twenty one hour podcasts on the PMI project management institutes.
Jeff Ross (22:14)
Wow.
I'm sure some people will find
that riveting. I just, I just asked, not me.
Merv Jersak (22:20)
Some do.
But here's what's interesting. I got bored with it, even though I really grabbed it. And I thought, you know, no, I'm really all about man, leading people, not managing process. And so I instructed or I convinced my colleague to do this podcast. The last year we did one hundred and twenty, twenty minute episodes on exactly what we've been talking about now, those essential skills of leadership.
Jeff Ross (22:26)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I love that.
Merv Jersak (22:51)
And although it was kind of IT focused because we're both IT, the principles that I took from those podcast episodes, put them in the book and made it more generic, not in terms of general principles, but in terms of generic leaders. More. Yes, that's a better name. So whether you're a lay leader, whether you're managing your your parent teacher association, whether you know, wherever it is or running an IBM or a
Jeff Ross (23:01)
Mmm.
More universal, more universal, yeah, yeah.
Merv Jersak (23:20)
Deloitte and Touche or something like that. It's all effective, yeah.
Jeff Ross (23:22)
Yeah. I
think there's a space for in leadership and marketing, especially there's a space for niching down and serving a specific audience. But look at the greats. Look at Zig Ziglar. Look at Brian Tracy. Look at the, you know, the Tony Robbins and all that. Their teachings are timeless, meaning that they're evergreen. So what's like Napoleon Hill, right? We all talk about think and grow rich. That book was written over 100 years ago. It's timeless.
Merv Jersak (23:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Ross (23:49)
But the principles, just like the Bible, that's timeless, the principles apply today and they applied back then. And also I found a lot of the greats in this space, their teaching is universal. So it doesn't matter what category you're in. And I'm even myself starting to realize this. Like I've gone through my own journey, being the website guy, the funnel guy, the AI guy, the blah, blah, blah guy, realizing now that my passion is in this conversation. It's the leadership, it's the equipping, it's the...
building up a people conversation, what I thrive on. And I just love connecting with like-minded people like yourself in this space.
Merv Jersak (24:27)
So let me just real quick before we finish, finish that particular part, because you asked me to do a plug and I'd like to do that. So the new podcast is me interviewing people like yourself. And by the way, I'm inviting you right now to become one of them. Let's do it. Yes. But the podcast will be called Lead with Purpose, and it will be interviewing people who have mastered, are gurus in those essential skills of leadership, not in the process skills of management. Yeah.
Jeff Ross (24:33)
Yes, please.
Let's do it.
I love it. Bring
it on. I can't wait to be a guest on yours, but thank you very much for saying yes to being a guest on the Hero Makers conversation here. Before we go, Merv, where can our people find you? Where can they tune in and connect with you and how can they get in touch?
Merv Jersak (25:09)
My website is peoplefirstprojectmanagement.com and I know it's related to project management but as you said, the principles are timeless. And my email is merv at peoplefirstprojectmanagement.com or if you really want the short version, it's mjursak at gmail.com. It's the short version.
Jeff Ross (25:20)
Yeah.
Cool. Too easy. Well, we'll
make sure all those are in the show notes for our people to connect. And for our audience listening, thank you for tuning in. And we'd love to know what was the light bulb moment? What was the thing that spoke to your heart? Let us know in the comments. And if you've got any strategies or tips to be able to help us to, you know, specifically help us to improve our application of what we learned, we would love to hear from you too.
So please engage, please share this out and subscribe, of course, do all of that jazz. And we look forward to seeing you on our next episode. Merv, thank you very much for saying yes. This has been an amazing conversation. I look forward to having you come back on a guest down the road. And I can't wait to be a guest on your new podcast that we're about to launch. Thanks very much, Merv.
Merv Jersak (26:20)
Appreciate you so
much. Appreciate you so much, Jeff. Thank you.
Jeff Ross (26:23)
Thank you.